by Will-he-M
[Editor's Note: This list was updated on August 8, after deciding to switch Stan Musial to left field]
Unlike catchers, where you can easily pick and choose a Top Ten that nobody would have too many problems with, First Base is a tough position to judge because that's where the worst defender on the team is supposed to play. Yet, while looking up my Top Ten candidates, I found some things quite surprising. For instance, I hadn't realized just how good a defender Mark McGwire really was.
Now, a lot of the guys I researched came from the early days of baseball and I fully understand that their defensive numbers might be skewed. They faced many more ground balls then the guys of the last 75 years, which would cause them to have more errors then a guy like McGwire or Todd Helton.
This list was very hard to put together with so many factors involved. I couldn't go by the offensive numbers alone as there have been many great offensive first basemen in history. And since nobody alive today has actually seen someone like Cap Anson play I have to go by the numbers alone in certain cases, but I am factoring the era into my process.
10. Johnny "The Big Cat" Mize (St. Louis Cardinals, New York Giants, New York Yankees 1930-1953)1884 GP, 6443 AB, 1118 R, 2011 H, 367 D, 83 T, 359 HR, 1337 RBI, 28 SB, .312 AVG, .992 FPCT
NL Batting Crown Winner (1939)
5x World Series Champion (1949-1953)
10x All-Star (1937, 1939-1942, 1946-1949, 1953)
Hall of Fame 1981
9. Harry Stovey (Worcester Ruby Legs, Philadelphia Athletics, Boston Reds, Boston Beaneaters, Baltimore Orioles, Brooklyn Grooms 1880-1893)1486 GP, 6138 AB, 1492 R, 1771 H, 347 D, 174 T, 122 HR, 908 RBI, 509 SB, .289 AVG, .961 FPCT
2x NL Home Run Crown Winner (1880, 1891)
3x AA Home Run Crown Winner (1883, 1885, 1889)
AA RBI Crown Winner (1889)
8. "Hammerin" Hank Greenberg (Detroit Tigers, Pittsburgh Pirates 1930-1947)
1394 GP, 5193 AB, 1051 R, 1628 H, 379 D, 71 T, 331 HR, 1296 RBI, 58 SB, .313 AVG, .991 FPCT
2x AL MVP (1935, 1940)
2x World Series Champion (1935, 1945)
5x All-Star (1937-1940, 1945)
Hall of Fame 1956
7. "Prince" Albert Pujols (St. Louis Cardinals 2001-present)
1246 GP, 4602 AB, 954 R, 1540 H, 343 D, 13 T, 322 HR, 986 RBI, 45 SB, .335 AVG, .994 FPCT
2001 NL Rookie of the Year
2x NL MVP (2005, 2008)
Gold Glove Award Winner (2006)
4x Silver Slugger Award Winner (2001, 2003, 2004, 2008)
World Series Champion (2008)
8x All-Star (2001, 2003-2009)
6. Jeff "BagPipes" Bagwell (Houston Astros 1991-2005)
2150 GP, 7797 AB, 1517 R, 2314 H, 488 D, 32 T, 449 HR, 1529 RBI, 202 SB, .297 AVG, .993 PFCT
1991 NL Rookie of the Year
1994 NL MVP
Gold Glove Award Winner (1994)
3x Silver Slugger Award winner (1994, 1997, 1999)
4x All-Star (1994, 1996, 1997, 1999)
5. Mark "Big Mac" McGwire (Oakland Athletics, St. Louis Cardinals 1986-2001)
1874 GP, 6187 AB, 1167 R, 1626 H, 252 D, 6 T, 583 HR, 1414 RBI, 12 SB, .263 AVG, .993 FPCT
1987 Rookie of the Year
1998 Broke single season HR record
Gold Glove Award Winner (1990)
3x Silver Slugger Award Winner (1992, 1996, 1998)
World Series Champion (1989)
12x All-Star (1987-1992, 1995-2000)
4. "Big" Dan Brouthers (Troy Trojans, Buffalo Bisons, Detroit Wolverines, Boston Beaneaters, Boston Reds, Brooklyn Grooms, Baltimore Orioles, Louisville Colonels, Philadelphia Phillies, New York Giants 1879-1904)1673 GP, 6711 AB, 2296 H, 460 D, 205 T, 106 HR, 1296 RBI, 256 SB, .342 AVG, .971 FPCT
5x NL Batting Crown Winner (1882, 1883, 1889, 1891, 1892)
2x NL Home Run Crown Winner (1881, 1886)
2x NL RBI Crown Winner (1883, 1892)
Hall of Fame 1945
3. Jimmie "Beast" Foxx (Philadelphia Athletics, Boston Red Sox, Chicago Cubs, Philadelphia Phillies 1925-1945)
2317 GP, 8134 AB, 1751 R, 2646 H, 458 D, 125 T, 534 HR, 1922 RBI, 87 SB, .325 AVG, .992 FPCT
3x AL MVP (1932, 1933, 1938)
2x World Series Champion (1929, 1930)
9x All-Star (1933-1941)
Hall of Fame 1951
2. Cap "Pop" Anson (Rockford Forest Citys, Philadelphia Athletics, Chicago Cubs 1871-1897)2523 GP, 10277 AB, 1996 R, 3418 H, 581 D, 142 T, 97 HR, 2076 RBI, 276 SB, .333 AVG, .972 FPCT
2x NL Batting Crown Winner (1881, 1888)
8x NL RBI Crown Winner (1880-1882, 1884-1886, 1888, 1891)
Hall of Fame 1939
1. Lou "The Iron Horse" Gehrig (New York Yankees 1923-1939)
2164 GP, 8001 AB, 1888 R, 2721 H, 534 D, 163 T, 493 HR, 1995 RBI, 102 SB, .340 AVG, .991 FPCT
2x AL MVP (1927, 1936)
6x World Series Champion (1927, 1928, 1932, 1936-1938)
7x All-Star (1933-1939)
Hall of Fame 1939
[Editor's Note: This list was originally published on April 26th, 2009 with Stan Musial listed as the second-ranked first baseman. It has since come to the author's attention that Musial was inducted into the Hall of Fame as a left fielder, prompting his removal from this list]
In an attempt to provide some action - here's Kaiser Wilhelm's favourite ctitic.
ReplyDeleteUnderstanding that this is his opinion poll - and therefore not really up for debate - these comments are not a personal attack - but merely a reaction.
Hopefullly others, including the pollmaster himiself can comment...
Albert Pujols seems grossly underrated in this poll.
He's already racked up more awards that Bagwell and is certainly better than McGuire.
Having never heard of Cap Anson (not to be confused with one-time Cap, Anson Carter) or Dan Brouthers - there stats aren't overly impressive.
Other than BA - during a time when hitting .400 was a regular event - when fields and equipment were primitive - I highly doubt their skills could translate to minor league baseball today.
Again, not sure what criteria are considered in this top ten list - but from a simply schoolyard perspective - if we were picking teams for a game - I'm not sure anyone would pass up Albert Pujols for many others on this list.
My bias is toward the current players - believing that the players are bigger, better, more trained and better than those in eras of the past.
In trying to overcome that - I believe the players should be compared to their peers of the time and Will's notes provide opportunity to do so.
Pujols has been an all-star every year of his career. He hits for average and power. He does this with little protection in the lineup. What other hall of fame candidates have been in his lineups. How does that compare to Lou Gehrig?
Pujols may not be the best of all time - but he certainly is in that conversation. Having him ranked 7th of all time certainly is not an insult - but in my opinion underrates how great he is.
Their are only 2 reasons I have Pujols ranked 7th(which wasn't my original position for him, I had him originally ranked 2nd).
ReplyDeleteReason 1. Pujols' career isn't nearly over yet, which "hurts" his rank in my opinion(although if I could take any player from any era, Pujols would be my 2nd choice behind Gehirg).
Reason 2. Pujols didn't become a full-time 1st Basemen until 2004, his 4th full MLB season. He started his career off as a 3B/LF and switched around those positions plus 1B during his first 3 years.
Outside of those 2 reasons, he is arguably better then those other 9, he just needs to play 2-3 more seasons and keep posting insane numbers before he'd be in the Top 3.
As for the criteria I use, that's my bad, I should of clarified that in my first list. The criteria I use are a player's all around numbers, dominance and defensive ability.
So wait a sec. Guru calls the author "Willhelm"?
ReplyDeleteAll this time, I've been pronouncing his name using three syllables - "Will He Em". You know? Like that Black Eyed Peas guy who beat up that gay blogger in Toronto. Will, I Am. If you enunciate it quickly, it sorta sounds like William.
"Willee'emm"
Meh. Who knows.
As for Pujols' ranking, I might agree that he has already positioned himself ahead of Bagwell. But that's today. Toward the end of his 9th great season. The list was compiled after only 8 seasons, which somewhat mitigates his case. Depending on your opinion of the steroid era issue, McGwire either deserves to be ahead of Pujols or behind Pujols. As for Brouthers, there is no evidence to suggest that he shouldn't be ranked higher in this relative-to-his-peers-ranking. It's the best way to order your apples alongside your oranges.
Besides, I figure that just making the Top Ten is enough. Pujols might be 8th or he might be 7th, but the point is, I can't think of an 11th who got left out completely. Todd Helton doesn't deserve the honour.
Nepean's comment got me thinking of an 11th (or 12th) that arguably should have cracked the top 10 - I thought of Willie Stargell and Tony Perez.
ReplyDeleteWhile both played OF - Perez is listed as a 1B in the HOF. This line of thought led me to a quick search of all HOF 1B
There are 18(that I found):
Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Jim Bottomley, Dan Brouthers, Orlando Cepeda, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, George Kelly, Harmon Killebrew, Willie McCovey, Johnny Mize, Eddie Murray, Tony Perez, George Sisler and Bill Terry.
The potential future Hall of Famers (and I may be missing some) (7):
Rafael Palmeiro, Jim Thome, Mark McGuire, Albert Pujols, Todd Helton, Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell (may be missing somebody).
Anyhow - in my opinion - 1B is a power position and production is a key to being the best of all time. I've always like the "runs created" number (Runs Scored + RBI - HR (to avoid double counting HR)).
In order - the 28:
1 Cap Anson - 3,501
2 Lou Gehrig - 3,390
3 Jimmie Foxx - 3,139
4 Jake Beckley - 3,089
5 Eddie Murray - 3,040
6 Rafael Palmeiro* - 2,929
7 Roger Connor - 2,804
8 Dan Brouthers - 2,713
9 Frank Thomas* - 2,677
10 Jeff Bagwell* - 2,597
11 Tony Perez - 2,545
12 Jim Thome* - 2,463
13 Jim Bottomly - 2,380
14 George Sisler - 2,357
15 Harmon Killebrew - 2,294
16 Wilie McCovey - 2,263
17 Orlando Cepeda - 2,117
18 Johnny Mize - 2,096
19 Todd Helton* - 2,049
20 Bill Terry - 2,044
21 Mark McGuire* - 1,998
22 Hank Greenberg - 1,996
23 Albert Pujols* - 1,742
24 George Kelly - 1,691
25 Frank Chance - 1,373
Willie McCovey, Harmon Killebrew, Eddie Murray, Jimmie Foxx, Mark McGuire, Rafael Palmeiro, Frank Thomas and Jim Thome all eclipsed 500 Home Runs in their careers (24 players in history have done that)
Having never really given much thought to the all-time top 10 before - I wonder how these would be voted by the managers in our league?
If a ballot were to be submitted (and ignoring steroids, etc.) My ballot would be:
1 - Lou Gehrig
2 - Jimmie Foxx
3 - Albert Pujols
4 - Eddie Murray
5 - Rafael Palmeiro
6 - Cap Anson (hard for me to vote since I never heard of him)
7 - Jake Beckley (same as #5)
8 - Frank Thomas
9 - Willie McCovey
10 - Harmon Killebrew (c'mon how can you not have a guy nicknamed Killer in the top 10)
I didn't list the number of times each was named all-star, MVP, Silver Slugger, etc. Nor did I list playoff accomplishments.
Like I said when I made the list a couple months ago, it was incredibly hard to list just 10. It's not as definite as say the 2nd Basemen list where you can just pick the best of the best because the position is thin in that aspect. You try that with 1st Base and you're naming off 15-25 guys who can all be considered Top 10.
ReplyDeleteI put up a poll on the sidebar, asking people who they thought was 3rd best behind Gehrig and Foxx (the only two guys who made the Top 4 on both your lists).
ReplyDeleteWill should vote for Musial and Guru should vote for Pujols, obviously, but what about the rest of us?
I'll vote first and select Cap Anson ahead of both those guys.
Stan Musial is listed in the HOF as a LF - which is why his numbers did not show up in the analysis (not that anyone mentioned it) prepared a couple comments previous.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm not sure Mark McGuire would be a sure-fire HOF player - even without the steroid controversy. He was a 1-trick pony and probably isn't in the conversation for top 10 or all time.
Anyhow - I guess there's no interest in continuing a conversation about this top 10 list.
I had no idea Musial played so much OF. It looks like he played 1016 games at first base, but only 934 games in left field. Not realizing that he was inducted as a LF, maybe Will-he-M used this information to determine his position.
ReplyDeleteIf Will is amenable, maybe Musial can be switched to his LF list and the 11th place first baseman can be inserted onto this list.
I actually didn't realize Musial played so much OF in his career. When I made the list, I read the numbers wrong, I thought the 1860 games he played in the OF was his total games played period. If I could do it again, I'd leave Musial out and move the other 8 players up one spot and have either Frank Chance or Johnny Mize as the new #10.
ReplyDeleteSorry Frank Chance. Johnny Mize just plain takes a better picture.
ReplyDelete